Ever get the feeling, reading the papers and listening to the radio, that there are people who can't wait for a formal declaration of defeat in Iraq? That they WANT America to lose?

Many Americans hear this and assume, "Well, we've already lost. It's over." Are they right?

Before you shout "Damn straight!," all I ask is that you read these two contrarian opinions first.

One is a comparison to Vietnam that John Kerry WON'T like. The other outlines why Gen. Petraeus--who might just know a little more about fighting in Iraq than the average MSNBC pundit--deserves our support. Who knows? Maybe the guy who just re-wrote our entire military counterinsurgency manual based on his experiences in Iraq might be onto something.

It is true that the Iraq war is costing America billions of dollars and, most tragic, thousands of lives. But have you noticed that the advocates of defeat never sell price? They never talk about the cost in lives if we abandon the Iraq mission now. Estimates start in the tens of thousands, and go all the way up to the hundreds of thousands. And those most likely to die will be those Iraqis who reject Islamism or militant factionalism. The moderates will be dead or driven out. The extremists will govern.

Then there's the dollar amount. Instability means $3 a gallon gasoline. Islamists controlling the oil means the same, and maybe worse. Oil money flowing to Islamists means (as Iran proves every day) more money for terrorism.

The events of September 11, 2001 cost America a minimum of half a TRILLION dollars, not to mention to horrific losses of life, the echoing health effects to rescue workers, etc. etc. Will a defeat of democracy in Iraq mean another attack is more or less likely? How many $500 billion paydays are the advocates of defeat willing to accept?

Is it possible we can help the wobbling Iraqis erect a third-way society amid the Islamists and dictators of the Middle East? Gen. Petraeus says yes. The cost of giving our military the chance to finish the job is a few more billion dollars (a tenth of the cost of another 9/11), and yes--the lives of some Americans who have bravely volunteered to defend our nation.

What happens, however, if we say "no, the price is too high" today, and the Islamist-dominated Middle East that follows America's full retreat attack us again? Thousands of dead Americans will pay the price in Boston or Detroit or LA, and we will be forced to turn our attention to the Middle East AGAIN. What will the advocates of defeat say on that day? "Boy, I'm sure glad we got out of Iraq so we could rest up before we have to go back again!"

People who are unwilling to give victory a chance are those who simply have not calculated the true cost of defeat.

UPDATE: Of course, not everyone agrees. Some say 9/11 wasn't such a big deal in the first place, and war is an overreaction.

A Massachusetts Democrat sees what the rest of us see: young people fleeing, jobs moving to other states, slower economic growth here than in the rest of the nation.

His solution? Lowering taxes to make it easier for working families to pay their bills? Reducing the cost of doing business here? Stemming the tide of illegal immigrants who cost everyone millions in government services and take jobs from blue-collar citizens?

Uh, no.

Instead, he wants to pay people $10,000 in tax money not to move away.

State Senator Brian A. Joyce, a Milton Democrat, this month filed legislation that would provide any graduate of a Bay State college $10,000 for a down payment on a house or condo. Joyce hopes the payment would soften the blow from the high cost of living and might persuade some graduates to stay and raise families here.

The stipend would go to anyone who graduated from a state-accredited post secondary school, vocational-technical program, or apprentice program in the last 10 years. The catch: The recipient would have to agree to stay in Massachusetts for at least five years, or repay the money with interest. Also, the graduate's yearly salary could not exceed 135 percent of the community's median income.

Where will he get the $25 million to fund this bumbling bribery attempt? Why, from Massachusetts taxpayers, of course! And since Governor Patrick says we're already broke, we'll have to raise taxes to get it. And higher taxes mean it will be even harder for young workers to afford to live here, so they'll need bigger bribes, which will mean higher taxes, which will make it ever harder....

Meanwhile, Rep. Joyce--and every other politician in Massachusetts--is avoiding the huge, obvious, "natural truth" question: Who wants to live in a state that has to PAY YOU to live there?

Hey, geniuses! Think maybe the taxes and the goofy government and the tolls and the abusive political system that ignores the basic rights of the people and the welcoming of illegals and the bans on playing tag and on and on and on...think maybe all this is driving people away? How about this crazy idea: Making Massachusetts such a great place to live that people will pay us to come here!

My lovely bride The Warden and I love living in Massachusetts. It would take more than $10,000 to get us to move away. But every day, our political overlords make it a little bit harder for normal people (average, hard-working, taxpaying families) to stay. They seem to believe we have a bottomless capacity to take abuse. Young workers respond by fleeing to New Hampshire or North Carolina, and the solution? Another multi-million government program.

How do you explain to people who just don't get it that the problem is they just don't get it?